Lovely work, guys! You've raised the bar yet again.
One small problem. In the FS9 version it appears that the runway ends on either end of the threshold markings are coded as rough terrain, rather than smooth paved surface. I get bouncy wheels when I taxi there.
Rough Runway Ends
What you are seeing is true. The displaced part of the runway is a rough part of the total runway. You never land on a threshold of a runway so the rough payment is not a problem.
We try to make Kai Tak as real as possible and the rough payment is just another area that you will experience.
In real world we would never advance the throttles to a full calculated value until after the plane is rolling. By the time we are on the smoother part of the payment the throttles are advancing and speed increasing above the 20 kt value.
Also the alignment to the center line for Runway 13 was a little further on the initial turn once cleared for takeoff. All of this required the Controllers to make sure the arrival distance for inbound planes were spaced at 9 mile intervals rather then 7 mile intervals.
We try to make Kai Tak as real as possible and the rough payment is just another area that you will experience.
In real world we would never advance the throttles to a full calculated value until after the plane is rolling. By the time we are on the smoother part of the payment the throttles are advancing and speed increasing above the 20 kt value.
Also the alignment to the center line for Runway 13 was a little further on the initial turn once cleared for takeoff. All of this required the Controllers to make sure the arrival distance for inbound planes were spaced at 9 mile intervals rather then 7 mile intervals.
- martin[flytampa]
- Site Admin
- Posts: 5290
Are you experiencing this roughens with larger heavy planes or just small Cessna types? I recall this item popped up during beta for other aprons areas but I'm not sure why the threshold remains a little rough. Either way, it was only slightly noticeable with a Cessna on my end (wasn't the roughness that leaves a dust trail).
Sorry but many displaced thresholds at runways around the world are not maintained or even built the same as a actual runway. Even the concrete spec for a displaced threshold is less then the depth of a actual runway due to the weight for touchdown vs the roll weight for takeoff..Well, you should never land before displaced thresholds, but you must use them all the time for take off roll at Kai Tak. I'm sure these parts of runway were as smooth as the runway.
Best regards,
Emmanuel
You're correct but the weight limitation for touchdown doesn't mean the surface is rough. Displaced thresholds are different from stopways that most of the time are really rough.jvile wrote:Sorry but many displaced thresholds at runways around the world are not maintained or even built the same as a actual runway. Even the concrete spec for a displaced threshold is less then the depth of a actual runway due to the weight for touchdown vs the roll weight for takeoff..Well, you should never land before displaced thresholds, but you must use them all the time for take off roll at Kai Tak. I'm sure these parts of runway were as smooth as the runway.
Best regards,
Emmanuel
Emmanuel
Not sure what you mean since a touchdown as you already stated is never on a displaced threshold, overrun or a blastpad.You're correct but the weight limitation for touchdown doesn't mean the surface is rough.
You are not considering that the displaced threshold also for years at Kai Tak is also a blastpad. The thrust of the jet engines continued to destroy the displaced threshold at Kai Tak and it was a rough part of the initial roll for take off.Displaced thresholds are different from stopways that most of the time are really rough.
FS cannot distinguish between a displaced threshold, overrun or a blastpad other then makings on the texture. The texture used for a runway is the only portion of a runway that FS can assure is always smooth. FS also builds in a certain percentage of sensitivity into the contact points that 3rd party planes such as PMDG 737, 747 and 767 Level-D no not consider or test. Just because you bought a payware plane does not insure it is built to all FS standards. If some of these type payware planes were built to FS standards then they could be used as a AI Plane if the textures did not use up so many Frames. All FS planes double as both a flyable and a AI Plane. NO AI PLANE that was developed by 3rd party even meets or exceeds the standard used by FS.
Aprons (most of the time but not always) and taxiways get there smooth data from the runway portion only.
MS went further to make a tire roll sound for any part of a runway that was not the actual runway (displaced threshold, overrun and blast pad) sound differently then when on a runway or taxiway. There are some hidden codes in the actual runway texture that many don't know about. Watch a AI plane land and it always seeks the actual runway texture and not the displaced threshold. On the flip side of that same code ATC will instruct the AI Plane to use a displaced threshold for takeoff but not a overrun or blastpad based on the holdshort value.
I am the one that ask Martin during beta to leave the roughness in the displaced threshold which is based on both the Cathy and FinAir pilots that were consultants used for some of my code added into kai Tak.
I suppose the saying is your damn if you do and damn if you don't. Many ask for realistic and when it is coded they don't like it.
Default 19 works just fine for default FS9 /FSX airplanes. If you are changing default values so payware planes work better did that not tell you something.(didn't try with default=19).
- FlySanJose
- Posts: 197
Jim I think you are misunderstanding a little bit. I also got the bumpy ride on my takeoff roll (rnwy 13) on my first test flight but I was waiting until my second test before reporting it.
For me this is what happened: I got takeoff clearance, lined up onto the runway and as soon as I started my takeoff roll it was as if I was on the grass or dirt or something. I didn't see if there was dirt effects outside as I was inside the cockpit but I'll check it very shortly. It's bumpy on the entire displaced threshold until you get to the runway threshold where it's smooth sailing from there.
PS- I don't have moving airport vehicles (FS9). Is that how it should be?
For me this is what happened: I got takeoff clearance, lined up onto the runway and as soon as I started my takeoff roll it was as if I was on the grass or dirt or something. I didn't see if there was dirt effects outside as I was inside the cockpit but I'll check it very shortly. It's bumpy on the entire displaced threshold until you get to the runway threshold where it's smooth sailing from there.
PS- I don't have moving airport vehicles (FS9). Is that how it should be?
Sorry, english is not my native language. I only mean that this is not because there's a more restrictive weight limitation for touchdown for the part of the runway before displaced threshold that this part is rough.jvile wrote:Not sure what you mean since a touchdown as you already stated is never on a displaced threshold, overrun or a blastpad.You're correct but the weight limitation for touchdown doesn't mean the surface is rough.
You're right, the part before displaced threshold was probably "destroyed" by thrust of jet engines at take off and probably more rough than the runway. About FS and his limitations, I'm aware of them 'cause I'm also a scenery designer since FS5.1, but it's another story.jvile wrote:You are not considering that the displaced threshold also for years at Kai Tak is also a blastpad. The thrust of the jet engines continued to destroy the displaced threshold at Kai Tak and it was a rough part of the initial roll for take off.Displaced thresholds are different from stopways that most of the time are really rough.
FS cannot distinguish between a displaced threshold, overrun or a blastpad other then makings on the texture. The texture used for a runway is the only portion of a runway that FS can assure is always smooth. FS also builds in a certain percentage of sensitivity into the contact points that 3rd party planes such as PMDG 737, 747 and 767 Level-D never consider. Just because you bought a payware plane does not insure it is built to FS standards. Aprons (most of the time but not always) and taxiways get there smooth data from the runway portion only.
MS went further to make a tire roll sound for any part of a runway that was not the actual runway (displaced threshold, overrun and blast pad) sound differently then when on a runway or taxiway. There are some hidden codes in the actual runway texture that many don't know about. Watch a AI plane land and it always seeks the actual runway texture and not the displaced threshold. On the flip side of that same code ATC will instruct the AI Plane to use a displaced threshold for takeoff but not a overrun or blastpad based on the holdshort value.
I am the one that ask Martin during beta to leave the roughness in the displaced threshold which is based on both the Cathy and FinAir pilots that were consultants used for some of my code added into kai Tak.
In FS (a simulator), airplanes bounce a lot more than in reality (except on grass or unpaved surfaces). An aircraft that was bouncing in reality like in FS (from the cockpit view) on rough paved surface was Concorde 'cause of his nosewheel that was far behind the cockpit. But don't worry, I can live with it. The Kaï Tak scenery, as I already said, is a real masterpiece. But from my point of view, in FS a smooth surface should be more close to reality than a rough surface for this part of runway.
Emmanuel
I have flown at Kai Tak sofar only with the Overland A340 which is the aircraft with which I had the issue I reported here.
jvile,
What you say is plainly incorrect as applied to Kai Tak. The displaced threshold area before the piano keys at the 13 end of the runway is constantly used for takeoff and when the airport was still operational must have been maintained properly to prevent FOD ingestion when the engines spool up at takeoff. Likewise, there is a proper taxiway turnoff at the 30 end of the runway which must have been regularly used by some of those long landings that didn't quite end up in the drink.
There is no reason why either of these areas should be coded as rough as a potato field in FS.
PS: speaking of ending up in the drink, I was amazed that the scenery includes the carcass of the old China Airlines 744, even with open emergency exits, that ended up in Kowloon Bay once.
jvile,
What you say is plainly incorrect as applied to Kai Tak. The displaced threshold area before the piano keys at the 13 end of the runway is constantly used for takeoff and when the airport was still operational must have been maintained properly to prevent FOD ingestion when the engines spool up at takeoff. Likewise, there is a proper taxiway turnoff at the 30 end of the runway which must have been regularly used by some of those long landings that didn't quite end up in the drink.
There is no reason why either of these areas should be coded as rough as a potato field in FS.PS: speaking of ending up in the drink, I was amazed that the scenery includes the carcass of the old China Airlines 744, even with open emergency exits, that ended up in Kowloon Bay once.
I realize some are seeing a rougher then normal rough when on the displaced /blastpad threshold. I will work on this to see if I can smooth it down some. However in my testing I placed a fake unseen apron under the displaced threshold and that did little for the roughness.What you say is plainly incorrect as applied to Kai Tak. The displaced threshold area before the piano keys at the 13 end of the runway is constantly used for takeoff and when the airport was still operational must have been maintained properly to prevent FOD ingestion when the engines spool up at takeoff.
As far as spooling engines up when on a displaced threshold we use common sense. It is not just about ingestion or passenger comfort but safty. In fact we do not always spool a engine to the calculated full thrust but in most cases only spool to 40 percent. Only then after a roll is started and the PIC calls for a gauge sweep (understood) do we then spool up further. Spooling up a engine in most cases is a 2 step process. We are not taking off on a Carrier so we spool up some, roll and then spool up while monitoring the exhaust gas temperature (EGT) and inlet turbine temperature (ITT) gauge values.
Even with a dual-spool layout in turbofan engines we do not want a possible compressor stall during our full calculated thrust setting.
The default B747-400's or B777 work very well and the roll is not rough as a potato field (example you use). Test using a default heavy and then the plane you fly to see what the results are.