AI traffic landing on grass

smasma
Posts: 45

AI traffic landing on grass

Post by smasma » Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:43 pm

I was watching some AI planes land and some landed on the grass. The one that wasnt even close to the runway was a Martinair MD-11. I like how its differnet depending on the .cfg but I at least want it to be on the runway.

Here's a screenshot:
Image
Last edited by smasma on Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
martin[flytampa]
Site Admin
Posts: 5288

Post by martin[flytampa] » Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:58 pm

What AI Addon or Addons are you using?

I tested it mostly with WoAI and UT. On the grass like in your screenshot I never got, worst was a back-wheel on the runway edgeline, still on the pavement.
Last edited by martin[flytampa] on Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jvile
Posts: 114

Post by jvile » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:01 pm

smasma


What is very hard to do is try and explain to AI Plane modlers that FS9/FSX AI planes MUST fly certain DEFAULT curved approaches. If you set weather to less then 3 mile visibility at PHNL all AI Planes that are landing on RWY 26L fly a default curved approach (the LDA). The FS9/FSX default B747 has no problem flying these FS9/FSX coded approaches but many 3rd party AI Planes cannot do it.

I have ask many AI plane developers to test there models for curved approaches but it continues to fall on deaf ears. AI modlers only know how to adjust .air and .cfg files for a staright in ILS approach with speed, flair and touchdown.

Some models fly curved approaches better then others. This has to do with sink rates in a bank with gear /flaps down and the amount of turn (desired bank angle vs actual bank angle) the AI plane can achieve. Many 3rd party heavy AI planes cannot even fly a straight in VORDME approach like at FT's TNCM RWY 09 because a ILS does not exist. When a actual ILS does not exist in the approach code, AI planes fall back on a hard coded .dll file to simulate a actual ILS approach code.

When you find a certain model AI Plane that will not behave correctly it is best to change the .air and .cfg to a more stable set of .air and. cfg files from some other AI Plane that does work.

Some AI planes are so bad that without a coded ILS they go missed approach because when they find the invisible runway texture code the .air and .cfg fights the actual coded descent code based on their desired descent code.
Last edited by jvile on Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
smasma
Posts: 45

Post by smasma » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:07 pm

I am using MTX51b. If a 737 lands fine I copy the .air and .cfg file to the Md-11 folder and it should work?
jvile
Posts: 114

Post by jvile » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:14 pm

NO

You must use a .air and .cfg from a AI Plane that is equal in type, size and weight. You copy the .air and the .cfg but in the .cfg you must keep the original contact points and light positions.

You could also use Jan Martins files for the type AI Plane that does not behave very well. I don't know if his web site list your actual AI modeled plane but he does have many AI planes that are popular already set up with a good set of engineered FDE's.

The L-1011, DC10, MD11 are some of the hardest to find a good working set of FDE's for the AI plane.

We also need to remember that most AI Planes are actually FS9 models and not FSX models. Besides texture issues the flight dynamics changed in the .air and .cfg for FSX. This is causing some additional problems when using a FS9 coded plane in the FSX curved approach environment. I have to write 2 seperate approach codes for 1 airport. One for FS9 using FS9 AI Planes and one for FSX using FS9 AI Planes.

Sometimes it is best to try and use someone else's MD11 if you can find the correct texture for your airline.

I test with mostly WOAI which is for the most part a Arrdvark model plane. Arrdvark goes for the short roll out after landing. I also use PAI, Evolve, FSP and several others that are more popular. They are not as perfect as what FS9/FSX default can do with their FDE's but at least can bank a little better then others available.
smasma
Posts: 45

Post by smasma » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:58 pm

Where can I download Jan Martins ai planes to download? In the aircraft.cfg I copy everything over except the contact points and light positions?


Thanks

EDIT: I justed looked up Jan Martin in Google and project ai came up. So now I only download the plane models that don't land correctly. I just searched the site file library for his name and nothing came up.
jvile
Posts: 114

Post by jvile » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:14 pm

Here is Jan's web site

http://de.geocities.com/janswebsites/fl ... index.html

Down at the bottom go to FDE /other and see if your AI Plane is listed. If so just copy the .air and .cfg to your AI Plane and then just put back all your Fltsim sections.

If not listed find a MD11 on his site. Use the .air and .cfg he has for another MD11 but keep your Contact points and Light position so your model has those correct. You need your contact points and lights so everything in that area stays the same.

Be sure in each of your fltsim sections you point to his .air file name and not your old one.
smasma
Posts: 45

Post by smasma » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:25 pm

Thanks for the great support. I just have a few questions. In the mytraffic md11 .cfg I also shouldn't modify the effects and exits as well. Is that correct? The .air for the md11 names is: paimd11v5acof.air I should change it to the .air file name in the md11 folder. Correct?

Thanks in advance :)
jvile
Posts: 114

Post by jvile » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:38 pm

I just have a few questions. In the mytraffic md11 .cfg I also shouldn't modify the effects and exits as well.
True, I forgot about those.
The .air for the md11 names is: paimd11v5acof.air I should change it to the .air file name in the md11 folder. Correct?
the other way around. Place Jan's .air in that folder (aircraft folder) and in your original .cfg at the top is the fltsim section

Change

fltsim.0
title=McDonnell-Douglas/Boeing MD-11 AI_DAL
sim=xxxxxxxxxxx <<<<<<-------------------------- change this line to read

sim=paimd11v5acof


that way the fltsim section will point to the correct .air file that matches the new .cfg file

do the same thing if you have more then 1 fltsim section based on airline textures.
smasma
Posts: 45

Post by smasma » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:54 pm

I changed the sim to the correct .air file. The first thing under general in the MTX .cfg is :

[pilot_static]
vertical_speed_time_constant = 1 //Increasing this value will cause a more instantaneous reaction in the VSI
pitot_heat=1.000000

In the other .cfg the pilot static is at the bottom and looks like this:

[pitot_static]
vertical_speed_time_constant=1 //Increasing this value will cause a more instantaneous reaction in the VSI

Do I just copy and paste over pilot static or do I leave pilot heat? Basically do I use the mtx .cfg order with just the pai numbers etc. or do I copy and paste, replace under each section?

Thanks
jvile
Posts: 114

Post by jvile » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:06 pm

The order listed in the .cfg does not matter after you get past the fltsim section.

Overwrite all sections (except what we listed above) including the pitot_heat which AI does not use anyway.
smasma
Posts: 45

Post by smasma » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:16 pm

I can't find the lights position in the MTX .cfg. This is how it looks starting with the general section:

[General]
atc_type=MCDONNELDOUGLAS
atc_model=MD11
editable=1
performance=
Category=airplane



[pitot_static]
vertical_speed_time_constant = 1 //Increasing this value will cause a more instantaneous reaction in the VSI
pitot_heat=1.000000


[WEIGHT_AND_BALANCE]
max_gross_weight = 875000 // (pounds)
empty_weight = 401100 // (pounds)

reference_datum_position = 83.5, 0, 0 // (feet) distance from FlightSim Reference position: (1/4 chord, centerline, waterline)
empty_weight_CG_position = -90.5, 0, 0 // (feet) longitudinal, lateral, vertical distance from specified datum

max_number_of_stations = 50

station_load.0 = 40000, -80.0, 0.0, 0.0 //Payload Weight (lbs), longitudinal, lateral, vertical positions from datum (feet)

;Moments of Inertia
empty_weight_roll_MOI = 15352310
empty_weight_pitch_MOI = 24223159
empty_weight_yaw_MOI = 39531785
empty_weight_coupled_MOI = 0


[fuel]
Center1 = -83.5, 0.0, -7.0, 19545.0, 3.0 //Longitudinal (feet), Lateral (feet), Vertical (feet), Usable(gallons), Unusable (gallons)
Center2 = -193.5, 0.0, 6.0, 3300.0, 0.0 //Longitudinal (feet), Lateral (feet), Vertical (feet), Usable(gallons), Unusable (gallons)
LeftMain = -112.0, -35.0, -4.0, 16720.0, 3.0 //Longitudinal (feet), Lateral (feet), Vertical (feet), Usable(gallons), Unusable (gallons)
LeftAux = -118.5, -52.0, -3.0, 500.0, 0.0 //Longitudinal (feet), Lateral (feet), Vertical (feet), Usable(gallons), Unusable (gallons)
RightMain = -112.0, 35.0, -4.0, 16720.0, 3.0 //Longitudinal (feet), Lateral (feet), Vertical (feet), Usable(gallons), Unusable (gallons)
RightAux = -118.5, 52.0, -3.0, 500.0, 0.0 //Longitudinal (feet), Lateral (feet), Vertical (feet), Usable(gallons), Unusable (gallons)
fuel_type = 2 //Fuel type: 1 = Avgas, 2 = JetA
number_of_tank_selectors = 1
electric_pump=1

[airplane_geometry]
wing_area = 5825.0 //Square feet
wing_span = 169.4 //Feet
wing_root_chord = 48.8 //Feet
wing_dihedral = 7.0 //Degrees
wing_incidence = 2.0 //Degrees
wing_twist = -1.0 //Degrees
oswald_efficiency_factor= 0.68 //Measure of lift effeciency of wing
wing_winglets_flag = 1 //Are winglets available?
wing_sweep = 37.5 //Degrees, wing leading edge
wing_pos_apex_lon = -68.2 //Feet, longitudinal distance from reference point, negative going aft
wing_pos_apex_vert = 0 //Feet, vertical distance from reference point, positive going up
htail_area = 1470 //Square feet
htail_span = 72.8 //Feet
htail_pos_lon = -210.0 //Feet, longitudinal distance from reference point, negative going aft
htail_pos_vert = 0.0 //Feet, vertical distance from reference point, positive going up
htail_incidence = 0.0 //Degrees
htail_sweep = 37.5 //Degrees, horizontal tail leading edge
vtail_area = 1060 //Square feet
vtail_span = 37.1 //Feet, tip to body
vtail_sweep = 45.0 //Degrees, vertical tail leading edge
vtail_pos_lon = -198.5 //Feet, longitudinal distance from reference point, negative going aft
vtail_pos_vert = 26.1 //Feet, vertical distance from reference point, positive going up
elevator_area = 327 //Square feet
aileron_area = 225 //Square feet
rudder_area = 230 //Square feet
elevator_up_limit = 25 //Degrees
elevator_down_limit = 15 //Degrees
aileron_up_limit = 25 //Degrees
aileron_down_limit = 15 //Degrees
rudder_limit = 31.5 //Degrees
elevator_trim_limit = 20 //Degrees
spoiler_limit = 45 //Degrees
spoilerons_available = 1 //Spoilerons Available?
aileron_to_spoileron_gain = 3 //Aileron to spoileron gain
min_ailerons_for_spoilerons = 10 //Degrees
min_flaps_for_spoilerons = 0 //Minimum flap handle position when spoilerons activate
auto_spoiler_available=1
spoiler_extension_time=2.000000
positive_g_limit_flaps_up=4.000000
positive_g_limit_flaps_down=3.000000
negative_g_limit_flaps_up=-3.000000
negative_g_limit_flaps_down=-2.000000

[Reference Speeds]
flaps_up_stall_speed = 140.0 //Knots True (KTAS)
full_flaps_stall_speed = 112.0 //Knots True (KTAS)
cruise_speed = 505.0 //Knots True (KTAS)
max_indicated_speed=497.671875
max_mach=0.919971

[flaps.0]
type = 1 // 1 - tail, 2 - lead
span-outboard = 0.8 // 0.0 .. 1.0
extending-time = 25 // seconds
flaps-position.0 = 0 // degrees
flaps-position.1 = 1 // degrees
flaps-position.2 = 5 // degrees
flaps-position.3 = 10 // degrees
flaps-position.4 = 20 // degrees
flaps-position.5 = 25 // degrees
flaps-position.6 = 30 // degrees
damaging-speed = 200 // KIAS
blowout-speed = 250 // KIAS
lift_scalar = 0.7
drag_scalar = 0.9
pitch_scalar= 0.9
system_type = 1 //Hydraulic

[flaps.1]
type = 2 // 1 - tail, 2 - lead
span-outboard = 0.8 // 0.0 .. 1.0
extending-time = 2 // seconds
flaps-position.0 = 0 // degrees
flaps-position.1 = 1.0 // degrees
damaging-speed = 250 // KIAS
blowout-speed = 300 // KIAS
lift_scalar = 0.3
drag_scalar = 0.1
pitch_scalar= 0.1
system_type = 1 //Hydraulic

[flight_tuning]
cruise_lift_scalar = 1.0
parasite_drag_scalar = 1.0
induced_drag_scalar = 1.0
elevator_effectiveness = 1.0
aileron_effectiveness = 1.0
rudder_effectiveness = 1.0
pitch_stability = 1.0
roll_stability = 1.0
yaw_stability = 1.0
elevator_trim_effectiveness = 1.0
aileron_trim_effectiveness = 1.0
rudder_trim_effectiveness = 1.0

[GeneralEngineData]
engine_type = 1 //0=Piston, 1=Jet, 2=None, 3=Helo-Turbine, 4=Rocket, 5=Turboprop
Engine.0 = -107.5, -69.5, -6.9 //(feet) longitudinal, lateral, vertical distance from reference datum
Engine.1 = -76.0, -38.9, -10.4 //(feet) longitudinal, lateral, vertical distance from reference datum
Engine.2 = -76.0, 38.9, -10.4 //(feet) longitudinal, lateral, vertical distance from reference datum
Engine.3 = -107.5, 69.5, -6.9 //(feet) longitudinal, lateral, vertical distance from reference datum
fuel_flow_scalar = 1.0 //Scalar for fuel flow efficiency
min_throttle_limit=-0.250000

[TurbineEngineData]
fuel_flow_gain = 0.002 //Gain on fuel flow
inlet_area = 60.0 //Square Feet, engine nacelle inlet area
rated_N2_rpm = 29920 //RPM, second stage compressor rated value
static_thrust = 56750 //Lbs, max rated static thrust at Sea Level
afterburner_available = 0 //Afterburner available?
reverser_available = 1 //Thrust reverser available?

[jet_engine]
thrust_scalar = 1.0

[autopilot]
autopilot_available = 1
flight_director_available = 1
default_vertical_speed = 1800.0
autothrottle_available = 1
autothrottle_arming_required = 1
autothrottle_max_rpm = 90
autothrottle_takeoff_ga = 1
pitch_takeoff_ga = 8;
max_pitch=10.000000
max_pitch_acceleration=1.000000
max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt=2.000000
max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt=1.500000
max_pitch_velocity_lo_alt_breakpoint=20000.000000
max_pitch_velocity_hi_alt_breakpoint=28000.000000
max_bank=25.000000
max_bank_acceleration=1.800000
max_bank_velocity=3.000000
max_throttle_rate=0.100000
nav_proportional_control=9.000000
nav_integrator_control=0.250000
nav_derivative_control=0.000000
nav_integrator_boundary=2.500000
nav_derivative_boundary=0.000000
gs_proportional_control=9.520000
gs_integrator_control=0.260000
gs_derivative_control=0.000000
gs_integrator_boundary=0.700000
gs_derivative_boundary=0.000000
yaw_damper_gain=0.000000

[contact_points]

//0 Class <0=none,1=wheel, 2=scrape, 3=float>
//1 Longitudinal Position (feet)
//2 Lateral Position (feet)
//3 Vertical Position (feet)
//4 Impact Damage Threshold (Feet Per Minute)
//5 Brake Map (0=None, 1=Left, 2=Right)
//6 Wheel Radius (feet)
//7 Steer Angle (degrees)
//8 Static Compression (feet) (0 if rigid)
//9 Max/Static Compression Ratio
//10 Damping Ratio (0=Undamped, 1=Critically Damped)
//11 Extension Time (seconds)
//12 Retraction Time (seconds)
//13 Sound Type
//14 Airspeed limit for retraction (KIAS)
//15 Airspeed that gear gets damage at (KIAS)

point.0 = 1, -25.0, 0.0, -17.45, 1000.0, 0, 2.0, 70.0, 0.5, 3.5, 0.900, 9.0, 8.0, 0, 220, 250
point.1 = 1, -114.0, -18.0, -21.75, 2000.0, 1, 2.0, 13.0, 3.0, 2.5, 0.900, 11.0, 9.0, 2, 220, 250
point.2 = 1, -114.0, 18.0, -21.75, 2000.0, 2, 2.0, 13.0, 3.0, 2.5, 0.900, 11.0, 9.0, 3, 220, 250
point.3 = 2, -152.6, -103.5, 3.0, 700.0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0
point.4 = 2, -152.6, 103.5, 3.0, 700.0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 0.0, 6, 0, 0
point.5 = 2, 3.0, 0.0, 0.0, 700.0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 0.0, 9, 0, 0
point.6 = 2, -222.7, 0.0, 4.0, 700.0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.000, 0.0, 0.0, 4, 0, 0

static_pitch = -1.5
static_cg_height = 18.6
gear_system_type=0

[Views]
eyepoint = -19.05, -1.97, 9.4 ; Longitude, Latitude and Vertical position from Reference Point, (FEET)

[electrical]
;BusType, MaxAmpLoad, MinVoltage BusTypes:0=MainBus,1=AvionicsBus,2=BatteryBus,3=HotBatteryBus,4-7=Generator/AlternatorBus(1-4)
autopilot = 0, 5 , 17.0
avionics_bus = 0, 10, 17.0
avionics = 1, 5 , 17.0
gear_warning = 0, 2 , 17.0
fuel_pump = 0, 5 , 17.0
light_nav = 0, 5 , 17.0
light_beacon = 0, 5 , 17.0
light_landing = 0, 5 , 17.0
light_taxi = 0, 5 , 17.0
light_strobe = 0, 5 , 17.0
light_panel = 0, 5 , 17.0


[Radios]
// Radio Type = availiable, standby frequency, has glide slope
Audio.1 = 1
Com.1 = 1, 1
Com.2 = 1, 1
Nav.1 = 1, 1, 1
Nav.2 = 1, 1, 0
Adf.1 = 1
Transponder.1 = 1
Marker.1 = 1


[direction_indicators]
//1 Type: 0=None, 1=Vacuum Gyro, 2=Electric Gyro, 3=Electro-Mag Slaved Compass, 4=Slaved to another
//2 Indicator number of slaving indicator if Type = 4
direction_indicator.0=3,0

[keyboard_response]
//Breakpoint speeds (knots) on the keyboard increments of control surfaces.
//Speed at which the incremenet is reduced to 1/2 and 1/8 respectively.
elevator = 150, 250
aileron = 150, 250
rudder = 150, 250

[EFFECTS]
wake=fx_wake
water=fx_spray
dirt=fx_tchdrt
concrete=fx_sparks
touchdown=fx_tchdwn, 1

[exits]
number_of_exits = 2
exit.0 = 0.4, -13.0, -8.0, 3.0, 0
exit.1 = 0.4, -161.5, 7.5, 4.0, 1

[forcefeedback]
gear_bump_nose_magnitude=3000 ; 0 - 10000
gear_bump_nose_direction=18000 ; 0 - 35999 degrees
gear_bump_nose_duration=250000 ; in microseconds
gear_bump_left_magnitude=2700 ; 0 - 10000
gear_bump_left_direction=35500 ; 0 - 35999 degrees
gear_bump_left_duration=250000 ; in microseconds
gear_bump_right_magnitude=2700 ; 0 - 10000
gear_bump_right_direction=00500 ; 0 - 35999 degrees
gear_bump_right_duration=250000 ; in microseconds
ground_bumps_magnitude1=1300 ; 0 - 10000
ground_bumps_angle1=08900 ; 0 - 35999 degrees
ground_bumps_intercept1=3.0
ground_bumps_slope1=0.20
ground_bumps_magnitude2=200 ; 0 - 10000
ground_bumps_angle2=09100 ; 0 - 35999 degrees
ground_bumps_intercept2=1.075
ground_bumps_slope2=0.035
crash_magnitude1=10000 ; 0 - 10000
crash_direction1=01000 ; 0 - 35999 degrees
crash_magnitude2=10000 ; 0 - 10000
crash_direction2=9000 ; 0 - 35999 degrees
crash_period2=75000 ; in microseconds
crash_duration2=2500000 ; in microseconds
[brakes]
toe_brakes_scale=1.241798
parking_brake=1
auto_brakes=4
[gear_warning_system]
gear_warning_available=1
pct_throttle_limit=0.099976
flap_limit_power=25.496622
flap_limit_idle=5.042029
[hydraulic_system]
electric_pumps=0
engine_map=1,1,1,1
normal_pressure=3000.000000
[stall_warning]
type=1
stick_shaker=1
[attitude_indicators]
attitude_indicator.0=1
[turn_indicators]
turn_indicator.0=1,0
[vacuum_system]
max_pressure=5.150000
vacuum_type=2
electric_backup_pressure=0.000000
engine_map=0,0,0,0
[pneumatic_system]
max_pressure=18.000000
bleed_air_scalar=1.000000
[deice_system]
structural_deice_type=1


P.S. I didn't modify anything shown above.

Thanks
jvile
Posts: 114

Post by jvile » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:31 pm

If there is no light section then your original AI Plane has them built into the model.mdl file.

You don't have to worry about it.
smasma
Posts: 45

Post by smasma » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:47 pm

Thanks so much for your help :D. I'm going to go watch the ai land and see which other ones I need to edit.

Thanks again,
SmaSma
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